Vineyard East Worship

13

Hey Kenny,

Sorry; didn’t see the post til tonight. Couldn’t make it to the conference for time and money. The September retreat is doubtful too; but working on it.

I love the youtube of “I see the Lord”! I want a guy with a big stick on our team. Awesome!

Eric

12

I do “I see the Lord” in drop D and give it a little bluesy kick – it works really well. The congregation whipped out the shofars and flags and it really took on a ‘voice’ for the people to worship.

11

@Eric.. I’ve been thinking about my statement there & examples of “Christianese or language/imagery that most people wouldn’t get” & realize I’m referring to both language & style that might come across as cultural cliché vs genuinely moving to not-so-religious folks here in NYC.

We’re really conscious of the stereotype out there that seems to result in secular NYers thinking that Jesus & his church aren’t going to be meaningful or helpful for them.

The prevailing sentiment we hear from our secular friends regarding why they wouldn’t take church seriously is that it seems weird, over emotional & shallow. They might relate it to the Shout to the Lord infomercial on late night TV (people seemingly mindlessly waving their hands & singing in a creepy kind of hypnotic way). Now obviously that’s not what’s happening in that worship recording (& Shout to the Lord is a great song)… but the impression it seems to give to an outsider (in our neck of the woods, at least) is that it’s a weird religious thing, NOT music that deeply moves one (any one) toward the Alpha & Omega.

So that being said, I find myself drawn to leading songs that “say something” about or to God that might seem rational to a non-religious person (even if they don’t believe what’s being said). For example, songs like ‘Full Attention’, ‘Stand In Awe’ , the oldie ‘The Blood of Jesus’ have deeply Biblical, Christian imagery & language, but they really say something that I think people around here could “get”. In part because the package is less culturally Evangelical & more culturally neutral.

I find myself shying away from songs that would be predictable to the stranger walking in off the street, instead of giving them reason to pause of a moment because there might be something about the delivery method that touches/moves them.

So like, one of our worship leaders will play more gospel tunes. But he’s got it in him to really own them.. and people seem to get that “this is for real” & the delivery “works” (obviously that’s the Holy Spirit in a moment, but there’s something even about the package that can work or not, I think).

I know that may sound out there.. I feel like my thoughts aren’t yet formulated very well, so I’m having a hard time articulating.

“I See The Lord” is an awesome old Vineyard tune. Here’s a kind of decent arrangement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1PiYTBhNKc&feature=related Ours tends to be more Bon Jovi (drop D all the way baby!)

There’s more about upbeat songs here: http://www.vineyardeastworship.com/forum/ponderings/fast-songs.html

You going to the regional conf in July? Would love to hook up.

Kenny

10

kp,

I’m in total agreement with you my brotha from anotha motha.

With that, I do have a few questions:

1. What are some examples of “Christianese or language/imagery that most people wouldn’t get”?

2. “I See The Lord” sounds like a cool song. I am not familiar with it. Who has recorded it?

3. RE: “have more upbeat songs” – We tend to want to open with something peppy, dive deep into worship and prayer in the middle of the set somewhere, then end with something kinda rockin’. What are some song choices you have found that work for the “upbeat” selections?

Thanks,
Eric

9

The aspect of a Sunday worship time “working” that I’ve been struggling with is ensuring what we do is as accessible as possible to the “uninitiated” among us.

We hear a lot that those people are drawn by our worship, but at the same time I realize there are things that I can do to help them vs alienate them.

So for example I try to…

- explain what we’re going to do together before we do it (i.e. “we’re basically praying together through song, you can join in or just hangout if you want”)

- keep language relate-able (saying eternal, theologically deep things without using Christianese or language/imagery that most people wouldn’t get). That being said, I totally see the value in singing things that push our understanding e.g. I See The Lord’ is a direct retelling of Isaiah’s calling in many of it’s tendious details, but people LOVE it. Even with that, though we try to give the content that this is scripture, where, why, etc.

- have more upbeat songs. This is an interesting one for me, cause I naturally will play more intense songs. But we’ve heard over & over again that people want some upbeat, “light” expressions too. Seems simple, but I realize it helps people (seemingly especially non-church people) to engage.

I’m definitely interested in hearing how you guys deal with these issues…

8

We have a ‘doula’ on our team – a person that stays with a woman from the time she begins labor till the delivery and three days after until the baby is successfully feeding.

We have really seen that as an analogy of what we do as a worship team (by the way, I am the ‘leader’ but continually receive and welcome input from my team – I value their sensitivity to the Holy Spirit). We come and worship – and facilitate the birth of a connection with God. We bring the focus to Jesus, and offer up songs and melodies that give the body a vehicle to express themselves in worship.

Sometimes it is just by example – we worship – they see us worship and are drawn in.

Its not the end all answer – but it is what we do. We want to enter the Holy of Holies – and everyone on my worship team is so there with that. They come eager to enter in. Even when things are tough.

We came to practice before church last week and we were all ‘poor’. I was ill prepared because of working a 6 day week – and not feeling very inspired. My base player had a bug in his intestines, and his wife (singer) just came from a birthing. My back was hurting – we were a mess. But something happened during practice, and we began to enter-in ‘by accident.’ It was the encouragement we needed.

The song list wasnt spectacular. There was nothing in drop-d.I only had one pick, and it broke. our drummer didnt rehearse with us. But the Lord led the worship, and we entered in. We always keep some extra songs and remain flexible – so we were able to go with the spirit.

We just helped give birth to something wonderful with life. It was a great sunday!

7

Alot of deep ones there, Debbie. I think you nailed it with “…these questions can never be fully answered in our time on earth…”

RE: “…what IS worship supposed to do?…”
I’m not sure I know exactly. Here are my guesses:
1) Bless God.
2) Act as a vehicle for us to give back to Him a little (a smidge, really) of what He has given us in talent, time, energy, love, faith and more.
3) If we’re worshipping 24/7 and not just on Sunday mornings, and as we continually adopt an “Attitude of Gratitude” for our Messiah’s great sacrifice and we love God with all our hearts, minds, strength and souls, and are loving our neighbors as ourselves, I believe our worship, (our worshipful lives), will be used by God to bless those around us.

RE: “…what IS worship leading suppose to do?…”
At times I see us as heavenly “door stops” to the Throne Room of the Almighty. We’re like ushers; leading the way with the humility of a servant. “One begger showing other beggers where the food is..” (I read that somewhere; not mine

6

Dang, just ate my last pistachio.

5

it seems that the question in the subject line is stirring up other questions…that was also my reaction when i first read dan’s post. what is the purpose of worship? what is my role as a worship leader? how can you evaluate or assess worship? i feel like these questions can never be fully answered in our time on earth…but we do get glimpses of the height, depth and breadth of worship/spiritual gifting/kingdom of God as we engage more fully with God.

of course, this is not to say that we shouldn’t wrestle through and seek after God with these questions…

so, i pose another question (based on patrick’s post) that may help us get to the core issue of dan’s original question.

what IS worship supposed to do? what IS worship leading suppose to do?

4

Ps. 50 helps.

But what do you mean working? what is worship supposed to do?

3

<<>>

For who? i.e. A fight in a hockey game is good for the crowd, bad for the players, and neither for the puck. It IS all about perspective isn’t it?

Do you think God rates our worship of him? What’s his perspective? I tend to think he’s actually looking, within our worship, for worshipers, not worship itself.

For instance:

Revelation 11:1 “I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there.”

John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

just a thought…

2

that’s a great perspective, eric!

being the “perfectionist” that i am, a lot of times i over-analyze the worship time, trying to assess how many people “looked” like they were worship, etc.

gotta stop doing that!!!

but on the other hand, i do see a value in trying to see how we could do things “better”…that area is so fuzzy to me…

1

My answer is neither. Once the music leave us, it’s out of our control and it is literally on the Holy Spirit to use it as He will.

We may “feel” good, bad or indifferent. But we can’t really make a call on the quality of the worship time, can we?

How can we “really” know how the Holy Spirit has affected people?